Path: chuka.playstation.co.uk!news From: "Rad" Newsgroups: scea.yaroze.freetalk,scee.yaroze.freetalk.english Subject: Re: anti-mod chip / pirating / backups / etc. Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 20:15:06 -0000 Organization: PlayStation Net Yaroze (SCEE) Lines: 376 Message-ID: <7a7asf$6p33@chuka.playstation.co.uk> References: <7a0a6u$714@scea> <36C40EC4.E4082468@datasys.net> <7a187m$o0v10@chuka.playstation.co.uk> <36C488C0.8DF59CF0@datasys.net> <7a2cd1$2i83@scea> <7a3pvs$7op11@chuka.playstation.co.uk> <36C5AEB2.BE73A768@btinternet.com> <36C6236E.D0B1F5B@manc.u-net.com> <36C6A344.67D0AF35@btinternet.com> <36C6C7CC.F953EEC3@manc.u-net.com> <36C6D97C.9D43D0A7@btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: vil-63.village.gre.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0049_01BE5856.B674EB20" X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Xref: chuka.playstation.co.uk scea.yaroze.freetalk:1194 scee.yaroze.freetalk.english:3491 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01BE5856.B674EB20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Right, I might as well say my piece. 1. I disagree with Will Atkin saying that Sony (or any other console = manufacturers) do not suffer from piracy because they make their money = on the hardware. They make very little if anything in terms of profits = on their consoles. Software is where the moneys at. 2. I also disagree that "Any attempt to stop piracy is ultimatley a = waste of resourses, because it is almost guarnteed to fail". How many more people do you think would have pirate games on their = PlayStation if there was no attempt by Sony to stop piracy (i.e. all = PlayStations could play copies)? Like I said before there is no way to = stop piracy 100% and I don't think there will ever be, but if piracy can = be kept down to a minimum then it's well worth the resources. 3. As for the music industry I don't think you can really compare it to = the games industry. For a start games cost much more than music cds, and = since it costs the same amount to pirate a music cd as it does a game = cd, where do you think the pirates are at? Sure people tape things off cds and the radio but most people listen to = cds (which they have bought). Look at it like this: new singles =3D 1.99, albums =3D 10.99, now you = see why piracy isn't as bad as in the games industry? Rad. rad@cyberdude.com http://www.netyaroze-europe.com/~radpsx James Duffield wrote in message = <36C6D97C.9D43D0A7@btinternet.com>... Hi Jim=20 In response:=20 James Shaughnessy wrote:=20 I don't believe you said that -- you said that "any attempt to = stop piracy is, ultimately, a waste of resourses" which is not the same = thing as "it is almost guaranteed to fail" and you know it ;-) Perhaps i should clarify my point. "Any attempt to stop piracy is = ultimatley a=20 waste of resourses, because it is almost guarnteed to fail".=20 =20 So are you saying that it's not a waste of resources, and in = fact a necessity in order to keep one step ahead of the crackers? How = come we don't we need it on music CDs then? I'm saying that if someone could come up with a way of complete = protection,=20 be it software or hardware protection, then it would not be a waste = of resourses.=20 And i'am sure if someday someone comes up with complete protection = the=20 music industry would be just as keen to implement it on music discs = as the=20 software industry would be on games or applications.=20 But the way things are, we are a long way off any such protection, = and to=20 get the level of protection required, taking into consideration = todays technology,=20 this would almost have to become a seperate industry.=20 =20 =20 Surely the fact that you have a chipped PlayStation and still = manage to fight the temptation of buying pirate games is proof enough = that you don't need nanny-hardware to prevent you from breaking the law, = or are you and I in a total minority in having this ability? I know of only a few people who have had their playstations chipped = and have=20 NOT bought copied software, so i beleive the latter halve of your = staement to=20 be true, we could well be in the minority.=20 =20 Cheers,=20 Jim=20 (Although by definition "grey imports" are not wholly legal = themselves..) On this we are agreed, however the proceeds of such purchases still = find their=20 way back to the manufacturer, and not some arse on a market stall.=20 =20 If anyone else cares to join the Sony debating society, feel free.=20 Cheers=20 James=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 So as i have said before, unless someone can take software=20 protection in a new direction (which i for one hope someday = will=20 be the case), piracy will always be with us.=20 BTW having been the owner of a Vic 20, a C64, an Amiga,=20 and an Atari ST, i also know how rife piracy was on all = these=20 formats. But lets face it, in the history of computer games = none of them=20 have been killed of in such great style by piracy as the = Amiga ( my case=20 in point).=20 Cheers=20 James D=20 =20 =20 James Shaughnessy wrote:=20 Sorry James but I have to point out that you seriously = contradict yourself there -- firstly you agree with Nick saying you do = need copy protection built into hardware, then you summarise by saying = ultimately that it is a waste of time.=20 I fully agree with your points though -- in the Amiga = days piracy was huge (most people I know only bought Amigas because they = could get loads of "free games"). Example, I bought World Class = Leaderboard (oh, I'm going back to Commodore 64 days now.. ;)) which = needed you to put a widget in the joystick port to run. What a massive = pain in the arse -- it's us honest mugs that suffer. Like you said -- = cracked version are available within DAYS of release, be it Amiga, ST = and it even happened in the C64 days if you were in the know. Cracking = crews were only born when there was something to crack, and updating the = encryption methods just gave them a new challenge.=20 So do you still agree that consoles shouldn't allow = out-of-the-box copying, or do you think they perhaps should be like your = Hi-Fi-Stereo and TV/Satellite-Video setup that allows idiot-proof ways = of copying (pirating) music and films? It's REALLY easy to copy music = CDs, so why do they still sell so many? A game CD has to have the same = philosophy surely? (er see other thread for more ranting from me on = this subject ;))=20 Jim=20 =20 =20 --=20 -----------------------------------------=20 James Shaughnessy james@manc.u-net.com=20 http://www.netyaroze-europe.com/~shaughnj=20 http://www.manc.u-net.com/home.htm=20 http://i.am/bart.simpson/=20 ----------------------------------------- ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01BE5856.B674EB20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Right, I might as well say my=20 piece.
 
1. I disagree with Will Atkin saying that Sony (or = any other=20 console manufacturers) do not suffer from piracy because they make their = money=20 on the hardware. They make very little if anything in terms of profits = on their=20 consoles. Software is where the moneys at.
 
2. I also disagree that "Any attempt to stop = piracy is=20 ultimatley a waste of resourses, because it is almost guarnteed to=20 fail".
How many more people do you think = would have=20 pirate games on their PlayStation if there was no attempt by Sony to = stop piracy=20 (i.e. all PlayStations could play copies)? Like I said before there is = no way to=20 stop piracy 100% and I don't think there will ever be,=20 but if piracy can be kept down to a minimum then it's = well=20 worth the resources.
 
3. As for the music industry I don't think you can = really=20 compare it to the games industry. For a start games cost = much=20 more than music cds, and since it costs the same amount to pirate a = music cd as=20 it does a game cd, where do you think the pirates are at?
Sure people tape things off = cds and the=20 radio but most people listen to cds (which they have = bought).
Look at it like this: = new singles =3D 1.99, albums =3D 10.99, now you see why piracy = isn't as bad=20 as in the games industry?
 
Rad.
rad@cyberdude.com
http://www.netyaroze-eur= ope.com/~radpsx
 
James Duffield wrote in message = <36C6D97C.9D43D0A7@btinte= rnet.com>...
Hi =20 Jim=20

In response:=20

James Shaughnessy wrote:=20

I don't believe you said that -- you said = that=20 "any attempt to stop piracy is, ultimately, a waste of=20 resourses" which is not the same thing as "it = is almost=20 guaranteed to fail" and you know it = ;-)
Perhaps i=20 should clarify my point. "Any attempt to stop piracy is = ultimatley a=20
waste of resourses, because it is almost guarnteed to = fail".=20
 =20

So are you saying that it's not a waste of resources, = and in=20 fact a necessity in order to keep one step ahead of the=20 crackers?   How come we don't we need it on music CDs=20 then?

I'm saying that if someone could come up with = a way of=20 complete protection,
be it software or hardware protection, then = it=20 would not be a waste of resourses.
And i'am sure if someday = someone=20 comes up with complete protection the
music industry would be = just as=20 keen to implement it on music discs as the
software industry = would be on=20 games or applications.
But the way things are, we are a long way = off any=20 such protection, and to
get the level of protection required, = taking=20 into consideration todays technology,
this would almost have to = become a=20 seperate industry.
 =20
 =20

Surely the fact that you have a chipped PlayStation and still = manage=20 to fight the temptation of buying pirate games is proof enough = that you=20 don't need nanny-hardware to prevent you from breaking = the law,=20 or are you and I in a total minority in having this=20 ability?

I know of only a few people who have had = their=20 playstations chipped and have
NOT bought copied software, so i = beleive=20 the latter halve of your staement to
be true, we could well be = in the=20 minority.=20
 =20

Cheers,
Jim=20

(Although by definition "grey imports" are = not=20 wholly legal themselves..)

On this we are = agreed, however=20 the proceeds of such purchases still find their
way back to the=20 manufacturer, and not some arse on a market stall.
 =20

If anyone else cares to join the Sony debating society, feel = free.=20

Cheers=20

James=20

 
 
 =20
 
So as i have said before, = unless=20 someone can take software
protection in a new direction = (which i=20 for one hope someday will
be the case), piracy will = always be=20 with us.=20

BTW having been the owner of  a Vic 20, a C64, an = Amiga,=20
and an  Atari ST, i also know how rife piracy was = on all=20 these
formats. But lets face it, in the history of = computer=20 games none of them
have been killed of in such great = style by=20 piracy as the Amiga ( my case
in point).=20

Cheers=20

James D
 
 =20

James Shaughnessy wrote:=20

Sorry James but I have to point = out that=20 you seriously contradict yourself there -- firstly you = agree=20 with Nick saying you do need copy protection built into=20 hardware, then you summarise by saying ultimately that = it is a=20 waste of time.=20

I fully agree with your points though -- in the Amiga = days=20 piracy was huge (most people I know only bought Amigas = because=20 they could get loads of "free = games"). =20 Example, I bought World Class Leaderboard (oh, I'm going = back to=20 Commodore 64 days now.. ;)) which needed you to put a = widget in=20 the joystick port to run.  What a massive pain in = the arse=20 -- it's us honest mugs that suffer.  Like you said = --=20 cracked version are available within DAYS of release, be = it=20 Amiga, ST and it even happened in the C64 days if you = were in=20 the know.  Cracking crews were only born when there = was=20 something to crack, and updating the encryption methods = just=20 gave them a new challenge.=20

So do you still agree that consoles shouldn't allow=20 out-of-the-box copying, or do you think they perhaps = should be=20 like your Hi-Fi-Stereo and TV/Satellite-Video setup that = allows=20 idiot-proof ways of copying (pirating) music and = films? =20 It's REALLY easy to copy music CDs, so why do they still = sell so=20 many?  A game CD has to have the same philosophy=20 surely?  (er see other thread for more ranting from = me on=20 this subject ;))=20

Jim
 

--=20
-----------------------------------------
James=20 Shaughnessy    james@manc.u-net.com
http://www.netyaroze-e= urope.com/~shaughnj=20
http://www.manc.u-net.com/hom= e.htm=20
http://i.am/bart.simpson/=20 =
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