Path: chuka.playstation.co.uk!news From: "ROBERT C SHAND" Newsgroups: scee.yaroze.freetalk.english Subject: Re: Generation Y Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 00:59:52 -0000 Organization: PlayStation Net Yaroze (SCEE) Lines: 226 Message-ID: <91eere$rlb1@www.netyaroze-europe.com> References: <90l6h3$4bj2@www.netyaroze-europe.com> <90ns7d$8c1@www.netyaroze-europe.com> <90o06t$8c2@www.netyaroze-europe.com> <91dton$s3f2@www.netyaroze-europe.com> <3A3AB6E9.92B3BD6A@netscapeonline.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: user-216-81.jakinternet.co.uk X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 > I personally, appreciate that you guys did an article with edge about the > Yaroze, however it could have been done a litte more friendly. If you re-read > the article, it does seem to spend too much time telling everyone that those > who did not enter the industry had wasted the opportunity they paid up to £600 > for....hmmmmmmm I think what a lot of people are forgetting is that we didn't write the article. Sure we went to London, did the interview and answered some email questions... but we didn't write the interview!!! We can't be held responsible for what Edge actually published. I personally think that we gave an honest view of what NetYaroze tried to do, and where it succeded and failed. I don't think it is fair to criticse the people that were mentioned in the article from one line quotes, since there is no context given for them. > I also think, you guys should have done a little more research, did you > manage to miss the Eclipse Software stuff? We are still going strong, we still > have plenty of active members and we are on the verge of entering the industry > ourselves. I did post many messages on this newsgroup, but a little bit of > self-indulgence seemed to be the order of the day. Matt Verran and myself have > worked hard to keep the scene alive, so I think it is a little premature to > write the death certificate yet, especially due to the latest > developments....... OK I'm going to take the bait on this one ;0)...... I personally did mention the stuff that you guys are doing... but again I can't do anything about what Edge decide to print. I tried to give a personal balenced view of the NY, if some people don't agree with my views.... tough... I don't know why.. but below are the questions that I was asked and the replies I gave..... Read 'em see if you think I was being fair... Comments welcome to me bob@shand.org.uk (COMMENTS NOT FLAMES ;0) Anyway that's my two cents Bob > > 1. What are you currently doing/working on? Well I'm still at Uni (University of Abertay-Dundee), on the BSc Computer Games Technology, I'm in my third year, working on courseworks etc. At uni we are looking at Software Tool Creation, OpenGL for Games and 3D on the Yaroze. For OpenGL we've got to create a random terrain, that looks as good as we can make it. For 3D Yaroze we have to create a 3D tile based game. I'm (hopefully) going to work on a port of the origional Wolfenstein. > > 2. How did you get involved in the Yaroze scene? What were you doing at > the time; did you have any previous programming experience? How heavily > involved with the scene were you? I origionally saw the Yaroze adverts that appeared on the OPM disc, so I saved my money for a looonnng time and then shelled out £470 odd quid for the Yaroze and Codewarrior. When the package arrived it was like Christmas . The the price dropped about two weeks after I bought mine. Oh well Before I got the Yaroze I had a little programming experience in C, not much, just simple "Hello world" stuff, and things for friends. I was just playing with programming really. I decided at a (relatively) young age that I wanted to work in the games industry. My first industry experience was when I did my work experience with school. I managed to get a week long testing job down at Bullfrog, so the family took a holiday down near Guildford, while I went to work. (Ok so near Guildford 'aint the best place for a holiday but my Family have been very supportive ) Well.... erm... on the programming side I didn't really post much code... or for that matter finish many projects. BUT! I did try and get involved with the social scene. I organised a night out in Dundee for all of the Yaroze people who were near Dundee. Also had a good night out in Edinburgh with NickF and load the others. George Bain also visited the University, since Sony were giving some Net Yarozes to Uni, so after the official thing we went and got drunk. Which was pretty cool. > 3. How well did the Yaroze help you prepare for a job in the videogame > industry? Hrmmm. Not really applicable YET! But if anyone want to offer me summer placements please mail bob@shand.org.uk . I think having an insight of developing for a different platform, instead of the PC, must be a great advantage. > 4. How important was support from Sony? When new members arrived on the news groups they often criticised Sony for the tools and support that they received, I did so myself. I think a lot of poeple were annoyned that they had spent X many pounds on the Yaroze, and support could appear (to newbies) thin on the ground. But after a while you realised just what Sony were offering, and in fact that the support was there, if you asked nicely and checked previous messages on the news groups. I think Sony got a lot of stick, most of which was undeserved. > 5. How important was the community that grew up around the Yaroze? How > accessible to outsiders was this community? If anything this was the most important aspect of the Yaroze. It enabled you to meet people, help.. be helped... etc. I've met a lot of good friends thru the Yaroze, some here and some abroad. I think the Yaroze community could be a bit harsh at times.... not intentionally. I think a few of the older members could get annoyed at newbies coming in and asking how do I do this?, can someone help me do? How do I load TIMS? How do I set the baud rate? etc. a lot of new people were unwilling to look at the example code, and search the previous news posts. But generally the Yaroze scene was a very welcoming bunch of people. > 6. What were the advantages of learning to programme on the Yaroze > compared to the PC? Well I don't think learning to programming from the ground up on the Yaroze is/was a good idea. Once you understand at least the basics of C than the Yaroze is a fun thing to play with. It gets you out of the mindset of "All computer are PCs". The Yaroze is obviously a very different beast from the PC. I found it fun and challenging to get used to programming for a target and not the host. > 7. How good/diverse was the content that was produced by Yaroze coders? As with everything it varied, there was some absolutely great stuff, and some completely wacky stuff. But the most important thing was that a lot of it was FUN and inovative. A lot of people in the industry are just churning out the same old stuff, and aren't creating fun, new and intresting games. > 8. How widespread was actual collaboration on projects (as opposed to > simple sharing of information)? Hrm.. a difficult one to judge. A lof of people started projects with others... which then fell apart. I'm not saying anything bad against people working together, but the fact that we aren't together in the same room/building makes it very difficult to colaborate with other people. There are still some people and projects that are going strong and the very best of luck to them. http://www.yarozescene.co.uk > 9. Do you think that there are too many games out there that place > technical slickness over enjoyable gameplay? How far did programming for > the Yaroze force you to focus on gameplay? Yes and No, I think the problem is not on the technical side, but more on the design side. Games have appeared to be stuck in a rut lately, you know the same old 1st person shooter, followed by a Tomb Raider clone.... YET another FIFA. I think more technical stuff in games is great, the more the merrier, but we have to remember the most important thing of all Gameplay! I think gameplay was always key on the Yaroze, you've got to remeber that a lot of people worked on their own, and simple didn't have the time or skill to make a game look/sound nice aswell as play well. So it HAD to play well. > 10. The release of PS2 has, arguably, highlighted current over reliance > on software libraries etc. at the expense of fully getting to grips with > assembly language. How far did the Yaroze encourage/discourage such a > reliance? The documentation provided was very sparse for the Yaroze, so no detail about asm, or how the units actually work. So most development was done with the Gs library calls. > 11. With the Net Yaroze and PC providing an adequate testing ground for > the future generation of the industry's coders while the videogame > industry is relatively immature, where do you see the next generation of > programmers coming from? Do you have any experience with videogame > specific university courses? How far do they meet the needs of a > fast-maturing business? I think you'll find a lot of people again coming from the bedroom, and from specific courses. I think that with SCEE giving away a free version of BASIC with each PS2 is a superb scheme, that should encourage loads of PS2 owners to play with programming, and then maybe develop it further into a hobby, and a possible career. As for the degree courses I think they are a great idea, but they need more support from games companies. We need more companies coming to us and telling us what they want. We need more offers of placements, we need people to come and talk to us. I also think that a lot of people perceive the course at Abertay (www.abertay-dundee.ac.uk) to be about design, whilst it is true there are design elements, the most impotant aspect is that of programming. > 12. With several of you now working in the videogame industry, what are > your impressions? How mature do you think it is, in terms of the way > employees, and minorities are treated. Again NA, but.... > 13. Where now for the Net Yaroze? Do you think anything like it will be > produced again (and why)? Is it just a fading memory, and if so, what > are the lessons that should be learned. Where now?? Hrm .. a difficult one, I think it'll just carry on chugging along people having fun, talking and helping each other. Just like it has since it began. I'd like to think that a Yaroze (in the true sense, not the free BASIC from SCEE) will happen again.... but I doubt it. Looking at it from a pure business view, it cost too much money etc. but I'd like to be proven wrong by some Sony exec! HINT HINT !! Fading memory I hope not. When I first saw the Yaroze on the cover of Edge I fell in love with it, lets hope that this is not the last time that the Yaroze graces the pages of Edge. Lessons to be learned.... I don't know at all.... I haven't thought about it. Maybe just that it was a *unique* experiment from a company that didn't have to do anything like it did. They supported the end users, and let them try new and intresting things, with commercially sensitive information... maybe some other companies should take a leaf out of Sonys book.