Path: chuka.playstation.co.uk!news From: Jim Newsgroups: scee.yaroze.programming.3d_graphics Subject: Re: 3D engines Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 12:15:10 +0100 Organization: PlayStation Net Yaroze (SCEE) Lines: 110 Message-ID: <334B7A3E.D59@micronetics.com> References: <3347dd19.3248416@news.playstation.co.uk> <3348D38C.1DC1@interactive.sony.com> <334A3648.1873@micronetics.com> <3349266B.7BD4@interactive.sony.com> <3349a345.33045335@news.playstation.co.uk> <334A3058.218B@interactive.sony.com> <334b3a68.199522@news.playstation.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: jim.micronetics.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b2 (Win95; I) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Alex Amsel wrote: > On Tue, 08 Apr 1997 12:47:36 +0100, sceetech > did quoth at me: > , > >At the moment the Yaroze is still a closed system, ( just like the full > >PS development kit ) with the libraries supplying you access. If you > >want to produce a landscape routine using the Yaroze libraries it > >doesn't have to run as fast as it might do using hand coded asm/gte > >code. That isn't really the point of the Yaroze. From what I read about Yaroze before I got one was about moving development back into the bedroom. Trying to get back to the days of amiga demos, and trying to kick start a demo scene on the yaroze. Now from when I used to participate in the demo scene, People hardly used C let alone a bunch of 'easy to use libs'. Can you imagine how the demo scene would of turned out if every one used RenderWare? Admittedly I am an assembler junkie, its something I do for a living. > > Appreciated , but the Yaroze /market/ (esp. in Europe) is at least as > much for people who are going to be speed freaks etc. You aren't going > to be getting AMOS programmers etc. using the Yaroze too often because > it requires a sound C basis as well as some 3d knowledge. And I think you get a good 3d knowledge from doing it at a bear bone level. I doubt I would know as much about 3d now if I had not implemented an engine from scratch. > > I think perhaps some of us expected something different - like an > almost 'supported' console 'demo' scene. as well as the opportunity to > write a few games. Personally I am not interested in creating a game from concept to final product. I just love coding. And I love coding something at the lowest level possible even more. I am programming on the yaroze to improve myself not to impress others with what I could produce. > > >I have seen hundreds of games come in, many using LibGS, and many using > >'improved low level gte'. The performance differences in most cases come > >more from interleaved assembly than any straight change of > >functionality, and there are quite a few that seem to offer less > >performance rather than more. > > Poor programming then! As for interleaved assembly, I'll get into that > - can you recommend a good mips book? Mips Risc Architecture by Kane and Heinrich is excellent. Definitely the best. ISBN # 0-13-590472-2 I also have the 'MIPS Programmer's Handbook' by Erin Farquhar and Philip Bunce but it is not as good as Kane's. Its more aimed at compiler generated code than hand crafted. Still good though. > > >With Yaroze the emphasis is more on providing new styles of gameplay - > >original ideas, rather than upping your frame rate from 30 to 60. Sometimes you need one for the other to work. I have scrapped so many concepts because just one small detail did not work. If the emphasis was really aimed at game design, it would be marketed at Designers not experienced C programmers with an in-depth 3d background. > > Personally I think both should be joint aims. But then I'm not a major > Japanese company. Wish I was! > > >We will update the Yaroze libraries, but we are very unlikely to replace > >them completely. After all the Japanese site has some excellent games, > >and they use LibPS. > > Only because they don't have a choice. I got the idea that a reason > for the Yaroze (unofficially) was to get more playstation programmers. > Providing only those that use gs is 2nd best to those who can do their > own 3d work. There is so much the yaroze cannot do with these libs. I would hate to port my bsp engine to it simply because it cannot 'really' generate polys on the fly. Yes I know you could modify a tmd structure, but that is a hack, inelegant and not the way I work. > > What are the best games on the Jap site? I saw that ftptest one which > was alright. I do like dino, and Car. But the are basically nice models, codewise nothing much. Also I have found something correct in the Library Ref Manual! Its just the header file that is wrong. Look at the prototype for FlushCache in libps.h extern void FlushCashe(void); Regards Jim