Path: chuka.playstation.co.uk!news From: "CRAIG GRAHAM" Newsgroups: scee.yaroze.programming.codewarrior Subject: Re: Now I'm getting REALLY mad! Date: 15 Dec 1997 11:43:26 GMT Organization: Intelligent Research Ltd Lines: 107 Message-ID: <01bd094f$aa411420$6c0b0a0a@newcastle.twowaytv.co.uk> References: <34902D9A.A58C5281@tin.it> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.131.235.3 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161 Giulio wrote in article <34902D9A.A58C5281@tin.it>... > Now I say: > How is possible to have a PSX that could make wonderful games and don't > be able to professional develop a big full game?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! > I'm writing this because I'm really tired to work with this buggy > Codewarrior and this powerful but "too hard to debug program" GNU > compiler. > But I ask : Senior developers have to work with such problems or they > have good library manuals and more powerful develop tools? We actually use CodeWarrior for 'real' development work, and although it does have problems in some areas (particularly the editor and the linker), it isn't all that bad. The alternative system (for developers) is from SN Systems, but their full debug system (PsyQ) will only work on a full Sony developer system (which is nothing like a Yaroze, it's a PCI card for the PC). It's quite feasible (indeed, much easier) to use the Yaroze + CodeWarrior to develop a full (large) game with, rather than using GCC on Yaroze due mostly to the FileServer feature of CodeWarrior - you can put so much more in terms of graphics and sound into your game if you don't have to allocate memory for stuff that's getting copied into the frame buffer or audio ram. SN System's stuff for full dev systems provides this functionality (and much more besides), but it you pay for it...and the numbers are large I can tell you. > I have make a lot of silly libraries and test programs to learn how to > use the Yaroze to make games and now that I have written 4000+ line of > code in my first full game, Codewarrior (2.0.3) is giving me a lot of > problems and Metrowerks is evading my bugs reports! The bug's in CodeWarrior aren't generally related to the code generation - they tend to be linker/debugger related. I've done a couple of 30000 line games under CodeWarrior now, and they work quite well. I also did one under CW-Yaroze of roughly the same size to see if it was feasible - and it most definitely is. > Now I'm wasting a lot of time to make Codewarrior run my routines! > I've a little time every day to work on the Yaroze and I'm wasting it > trying to make Codewarrior works. > When something in my program don't run I have to check if it's a > Codewarrior problem and sometime I have to rewrite code to make > Codewarrior understand it in the right way! I've not encountered that problem - even when porting AI code from PC game engines. Mostly it's not being explicit with you data structure externs and function prototypes that causes the problems. > I have thought to put Codewarrior in the basket but trying to debug my > game on GNU with my little time is quite impossible! > Do I have to program only little games or demos and put them into the > net? It's a good point to start at - do some small ones, include a few flash effects in each one, add the effects together into a big one, voila... > Do I have to look for a Software House to make my games become real? In the end, yes, because to do the full monty, with FMV and stuff you really need the full system - and to get the most out of the hardware you need the performance anaylser card to profile your code at system bus level. > Hey SONY what about you? Your programmers are working with such silly > problems? If the answer is no, why junior developers have to waste a > lot of time due to horrible manuals and tools? The manuals are translations from Japanese, contain a few errors and ommisions, but for someone who's clued up it takes about 2 monthes to get your head round what's really going on. There isn't really a Junior developers/senior developers divide - anyone can become a full licensed developer - just call Sony, tell them your ideas and fork out the money for their developer tools. We did. Be warned though, it's nowhere near as easy to use as a Yaroze..... I remember the days of the Atari ST - anyone could go out and buy a compiler for it and write games, but that didn't make everyone a developer - you had to fork out a shit load of money to atari for the full developer documentation and their official compiler - and the third party ones were loads better anyway. > And you friend programmers what you think about this BIG problem that is > seriously delaying our dreams? It's not that major - the setup is very useable. A Yaroze with CodeWarrior is much better than several comercial embedded system development enviroments for other platforms (Microtec Research, Greenhills, etc) which cost 50 times as much (or more). > Why in Italy there's no support > for games developers? You have football, what else do you need? Craig. cgraham@intelligent-group.com